Cross breeding

[Martin Oosthuysen]

Oh that's simple, any evidence proving it to be a positive endeavour to create hobby hybrids ?
Why have hybrids been made in the hobby ? For collectors to say I've done it, look at the tarantula looks nice. As for you reporting egg sack losses on normal or hybrid that's you, human nature shows people to brag about success not admit failure easily. Me and you don't make the hobby, countless people do. So I stand by below, unless I'm confused your replies agree ?

Take it as you wish, but 1 month 10 years in the hobby, common sense is the factor not experience. Since smart people or educated or experienced still make wrong choices. I love the tarantula hobby for what it is, not how I can redesign it. Hopefully you will actually see what I stand for, and we meaning me you and others can keep it alive and well. Almost forgot, not fictitious problems due hybridization just not documented only discussed. I changed my answer to show I handled it incorrectly a few days ago, but I 100% belief that its the right one now.

 

[Ceratogyrus]

Another miscalculation, you said that success or mortality would be the same as a normal breeding project, and that there are many well and alive in the hobby wow you must know a lot of people or keep tabs ? I'd have to disagree, many more normal projects well documented over the years, can't see hybrid breeding projects been documented just as strict as the above or at all unless you could direct me ? Another thing, keeping a few hybrids, doesn't mean its safe with no negative outcomes. Breeding and replicating the breeding would show that, unless the minor out way the majority.
.

Sorry, missed your edit.
If you have been in the hobby for a while you will know that there are always accidental hybrids being produced. Mainly from inexperienced people breeding them.
Just from your list of spiders that you own:
A.geniculata. Many people still can't tell the difference between different species of Acanthoscurria and hybrids have been reported from these.
A.avicularia. Let's not even start with the Avics. I have seen plenty people confuse the different Avics and accidentally breed them together. I am sure 90% of the people on here would agree that they have heard of the Avic Genus being a disaster.
B.vagans. Let's not even start here. There are so many 'red rumps' that have been hybridized it's not even funny. Mainly because of common names being used and people not knowing what species are being wild caught and imported as red rumps.
L.parahybana. Again, many people have no clue to the differences between different Lasiodora species. Post a picture of a Lasiodora on a site and I can tell you that not everyone will say it's the same species. These I am pretty sure that they have been crossed unfortunately.
Pamphobeteus sp. unless it's a wild caught spider, if it's got a "" behind the name it is because the species has not yet been described. How do the people that breed these know that they actually have a valid species. Who says that there are not numerous species found in the area that they were collected in?
C.huahini. You do realise that what you have is not huahini hey? Stefan who studies these spiders has said that what we have in the hobby is probably an undescribed species and NOT huahini. What have these been bred to to get all of the spiders in the hobby? Who knows?
H.gigas. Once again, same as above. What we have in the hobby is probably an undescribed species. The scientists that are working on Hysterocrates have asked everyone to name their species according to where they have been imported from and the month. That way people can breed the right species together. What we have in SA is not H.gigas purely (or even possibly at all) so that 'species' is a total mess up, possibly worldwide.
I will go search for links tonight to prove a few of the above to you if you are willing to approach it with an open mind?

 

[Ceratogyrus]

Oh that's simple, any evidence proving it to be a positive endeavour to create hobby hybrids ?
Why have hybrids been made in the hobby ? For collectors to say I've done it, look at the tarantula looks nice. As for you reporting egg sack losses on normal or hybrid that's you, human nature shows people to brag about success not admit failure easily. Me and you don't make the hobby, countless people do. So I stand by below, unless I'm confused your replies agree ? Take it as you wish, but 1 month 10 years in the hobby, common sense is the factor not experience. Since smart people or educated or experienced still make wrong choices. I love the tarantula hobby for what it is, not how I can redesign it. Hopefully you will actually see what I stand for, and we meaning me you and others can keep it alive and well. I changed my answer to show I handled it incorrectly a few days ago, but I 100% belief that its the right one now.

Not quite sure what you are on about.
I think it is positive if I can prove that a species that was assumed to be a hybrid, is not a hybrid.
Why have hybrids been made? As per my above post, mainly because of misinformation, inexperienced people breeding them and common names. To a lesser degree people wanting to make a pretty spider, as the offspring often look very similar to the original parents. People can't sell hybrids as new species, as they would have to be described first, so I don't quite see the point of selling them like that. The majority are sold as pure specimens of one of the adults without telling the buyer that they have 2 different parent species. Again, because of one of the points I have listed above.
I agree fully that hybrids are bad and I have said so from the start of the thread. I just don't agree that hybrid babies have all of these problems that you are reporting they have. First hand experience proves that to me.
Can't see where you changed your answer, but hopefully it's because you looked at my points and thought it through already.

 

[Martin Oosthuysen]

I agree with the hobby hybrid mistakes, the knowing ones are an issue. Also h.gigas or huahini, possibly true but I'd say we should submit specimens for scrutiny if it bothers the collector. Avics, thats due to people inexperienced crossing avics not knowing the genus. Like I have said, let's then work together. Submit to scrutiny if you aren't sure, I'd be willing I love the hobby and I would love to be helpful.

 

[Ceratogyrus]

I agree with the hobby hybrid mistakes, the knowing ones are an issue. Also h.gigas or huahini, possibly true but I'd say we should submit specimens for scrutiny if it bothers the collector. Avics, thats due to people inexperienced crossing avics not knowing the genus. Like I have said, let's then work together. Submit to scrutiny if you aren't sure, I'd be willing I love the hobby and I would love be helpful.

Not possibly true, they are true. Speak to the guys who are studying them.
Now here is my hassle.
If any of the species that I have mentioned above of yours matures, are you going to send the specimen to an authority on them to see if what you have is a true species? In the majority of cases, they would have to possibly kill the specimen to be able to study it.
Every time we breed a spider, we are possibly adding to the problem.
Just one example from your spiders: let's take the H.gigas. How do you know its gigas? Have you checked the description paper to see what separates it from other species within its genus? Are you assuming its gigas because the seller sold it as that? Was it identified by a picture by fellow hobbyists? As a rule with certain genera, a picture alone will never be good enough for a positive identification.
You see now, that even though you and everyone else in the hobby is so against hybrids, we add to the problem all the time.

 

[Martin Oosthuysen]

The difference is, knowing versus unknowingly. Also saw the post now where I changed my answer, only thing I changed was the approach why I waited a few days after my last post. If you know a person with extensive experience, there's always away to make sure about not having a hybrid. Also you are studying hybrids, I'm discussing knowingly creating them there's a difference. You aren't going out mating two different Tarantulas from the same genus, you are actually caring for them to see the outcome those are a few tarantulas imagine those mating tarantulas for hybrids 100's of them per sack.

The reply which I changed how I approached this.


Okay I have been looking at different websites etc, and decided to reply this way.

1.
Hybrids are not always infertile.
2.
Hybrids happen nature as well as in the hobby
3. Hybrids are not right when
- its not in the wild, because those happen as necessity not personal status gain.
4. Is there proof of negative outcomes of hybrids in the hobby like molting problems, defects etc ?
- only discussions and personal experiences
- who would actually honestly admit to a hybrid sack failure ? No one, since its already frowned upon.
5. Has there been any documents showing its not with negative results ? No, which is weird you would brag with success.

Conclusion
- hybrids are okay in nature not the hobby, we just want a bigger better looking ones,nature a better surviving one.

 

[Ceratogyrus]

The difference is, knowing versus unknowingly. Also saw the post now where I changed my answer, only thing I changed was the approach why I waited a few days after my last post. If you know a person with extensive experience, there's always away to make sure about not having a hybrid.

There is no difference. If you have a hassle with hybrids and you say that they have these problems what do you have to say about all the unknowingly bred hybrids that are flourishing?

And here is the important question. Are you going to breed any of the spiders of yours that I mentioned above one day? The majority of the knowledgeable people are in the German/European hobby. Are you willing to send at least a moult from every one of those spiders to the 'experts' overseas to positively identify your spiders? When it comes to males, you might have to send the male and then illegally import him again.
If you are not willing to do this, then you (and everyone else who breeds spiders) are all adding to the problem.

By the way, any other members on here who have gotten any of their species from a 'dodgy' genus positively identified according to their original description papers? I would bet maybe less than 5%.

 

[Martin Oosthuysen]

Sorry to say I'd actually send molts, just to prove I am not adding a problem. Also I'd say when they have released their findings in the species you have mentioned then we will take it from there.

 

[Ceratogyrus]

Now knowing all of the above do you see why I had a hassle with you claiming that hybridization causes deformities, moulting problems, infertility, etc when in fact it probably does none of the above any more than pure spiders do.

 

[Ceratogyrus]

Sorry to say I'd actually send molts, just to prove I am not adding a problem. Also I'd say when they have released their findings in the species you have mentioned then we will take it from there.

Even if you do, have you heard of anyone else doing it?
I can tell you right now that huahini and gigas are not what they have been named. As they are undescribed, will you then never breed them?
Assuming you have not bred any other species since keeping tarantulas?

 

[Martin Oosthuysen]

I can't agree to say its safe, or as risk free as Normal breeding. There is no research or documents that prove its risk free or with multiple risks. Its a 50/50, odds I can't agree with.

 

[Martin Oosthuysen]

If I had to see the study results, and I had to send the molt with a reply that states its not the true genus I would NOT breed it. I would not knowingly destroy the hobby, that's not who I am.

 

[Ceratogyrus]

I can't agree to say its safe, or as risk free as Normal breeding. There is no research or documents that prove its risk free or with multiple risks. Its a 50/50, odds I can't agree with.

Ok, but you see why I had a hassle with you claiming that the hybrids are affected by deformities, infertility, moulting problems, etc when I have had numerous species from different genera (Adding to the amount of accidental hybrids currently out in the hobby) that have shown no side effects other than the normal losses that you would expect?
Remember, in the wild, all that each egg case has to do is replace the parents. So out of thousands of babies from an egg case only a mere handful actually make it to breeding size.

 

[Ceratogyrus]

If I had to see the study results, and I had to send the molt with a reply that states its not the true genus I would NOT breed it. I would not knowingly destroy the hobby, that's not who I am.

Well for your sake, I hope you don't plan on breeding many species then unfortunately.
Take this from a person who has been around for a while and often chats to people who are the leaders when it comes to certain genera. When it comes to hobby stock there is major confusion, not to mention all the current unnamed species (Chilobrachys, Avicularia, Hysterocrates, Pamphobeteus species) and genera being revised (Avicularia, Hysterocrates species)

 

[Martin Oosthuysen]

Okay let me explain, I don't have research evidence but go on what others have said what they have witnessed. Even a piece where they discussed with inbreeding and hybrids documented a double abdomen specimen, even a bio chemist discussed why he disagreed with hybrids. So all I am saying is, no evidence to agree or refute the above.

 

[Martin Oosthuysen]

Well bring me the research, and I'd gladly send a molt to verify my stock. One thing you never find is me shying away from proven research, also I won't ever see myself as a true breeder since its way too big of a responsibility. I'm a collector who cares, if that's beneath others lmao so be it.

 

[Ceratogyrus]

Okay let me explain, I don't have research evidence but go on what others have said what they have witnessed. Even a piece where they discussed with inbreeding and hybrids documented a double abdomen specimen, even a bio chemist discussed why he disagreed with hybrids. So all I am saying is, no evidence to agree or refute the above.

Do you have links to those pages for me please?

The double abdomen vagans is not a hybrid and even inbreeding might not explain it or else we would see this more often.
How about this regalis of mine:


Both parents were regalis and totally unrelated. Just because there are anomalies, doesn't mean that it's because of hybridization.
Every time a person is born with an extra toe, it is not because of hybridization either.

 

[Ceratogyrus]

Well bring me the research, and I'd gladly send a molt to verify my stock. One thing you never find is me shying away from proven research, also I won't ever see myself as a true breeder since its way too big of a responsibility. I'm a collector who cares, if that's beneath others lmao so be it.

The description papers are available on the internet for the majority of species. Grab a microscope and touch up on your terminology. Not even I understand the majority of it.

Ok, but if the spiders are proven to be hybrids, why would they be perfectly healthy? Will you freeze them as you are so against hybridization?

 

[Ceratogyrus]

Even though this seems like a 2 way discussion, others input is appreciated.

 

[Martin Oosthuysen]

Again, I was referring the fact you pointed out about h.gigas and avics in south Africa. If this is a definite thing I will see a case study done by the experts saying these things to confirm them, why would I have to worry about health of the T since I won't be breeding a hybrid if its a confirmed hybrid ? Why freeze it ? Did it ask to be a hybrid ? So I know I won't breed it, so no risk added from me. May I just say, I have to take your word but everything I say I must prove ? Or so it seems. This is my true last post, hope you all continue this and take the best from it. Just use common sense when reading the reply below, and then reply accordingly. Oh please pm me the case study on the tarantulas h.gigas,avics and huahini that show the ones in the South African market aren't the true specimens. Other than that, I will go this weekend get the links and post them here. In future I won't have time to post much just photos, take care.



Okay I have been looking at different websites etc, and decided to reply this way.

1.
Hybrids are not always infertile.
2.
Hybrids happen nature as well as in the hobby
3. Hybrids are not right when
- its not in the wild, because those happen as necessity not personal status gain.
4. Is there proof of negative outcomes of hybrids in the hobby like molting problems, defects etc ?
- only discussions and personal experiences
- who would actually honestly admit to a hybrid sack failure ? No one, since its already frowned upon.
5. Has there been any documents showing its not with negative results ? No, which is weird you would brag with success.

Conclusion
- hybrids are okay in nature not the hobby, we just want a bigger better looking ones,nature a better surviving one.